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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 01:10:46 2001
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From: "Hendry, Philip" <p.hendry@lancaster.ac.uk>
To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] CT to G:T and back again?
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:10:00 +0100
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> My GT 1st edition includes information on converting CT, MT, 
> TNE, and T4 characters to GT.  I'm given to understand that 
> GT 2d edition has simplified these guidelines.  One should be 
> able to reverse the guidelines to convert GT characters to CT.

Thanks, I'll lurk in the shadows and mug my mate Adrian for his copy of G:T!

> Alternately, one can order various BITS publications, many of 
> which (including the outstanding combat supplement _At Close 
> Quarters_) provide information on using the product with all 
> versions of Traveller.

Okay, thanks, I'd been wondering about the BITS stuff and its suitability or
otherwise for CT.

> <blatant plug> I especially recommend the upcoming _101 
> Corporations_ from BITS.... ;-) </blatant plug>

:-))

> As far as starships are concerned, you're best off converting 
> by function: decide what niche the ship in question fills, 
> determine the "must-have" parameters, then design a new ship 
> that best fits the niche in question.  Conversion tables are 
> less than optimal (or at least have proven so in converting 
> between High Guard and FF&S2 armor, for instance), since each 
> design system has different assumptions (forex, HG ignores 
> the mass of components, while FF&S2 does not).

Okay, got that.  Anyone written any ship design programs/spreadsheets to help
with CT ship design please (just to save me actually having to use my brain-
I'm trying to preserve it in pristine condition <GRIN>)?

> Finally, keep in mind that most GT products are designed for 
> easy use by players of other Traveller systems.  There are 
> relatively few GURPS-specific rules in most GT supplements.

Thanks, that's worth knowing.  Now I'll go and place some traps in the corridor
(lethal to humans, non-damaging to RPG books) to catch Adrian- I want his G:T
books :-))

Cheers,
Phil
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 01:38:52 2001
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From: "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
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Subject: RE: [TML] Re: OT : Icosahedriphobia
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:38:28 +0100
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>> You see, icosahedriphobia is the irrational fear of things with twenty
>> sides.
>> ObTrav : Please, no Traveller : d20 !! Never !!

> Why not?

Because it dilutes effort. If people are writing stuff for d20, they aren't
writing stuff for T5 or that's backwardly compatible with anything else.
Fine if you have the time to translate stuff back, fine if you have the
disposable income to invest in yet another flavour of Traveller, but if you
have just enough time to game and have invested in the Classic/Mega/T4
evolutionary chain, not good news at all.

Also, because d20 is (IMHO, flame proof clothing on) an inferior system to
Traveller, which enforces stereotypes, makes inconsistent rulings, and is
not as flexible as even the original Traveller rules.

If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

[Having said all that, if d20 sells well and will fund the development of
T5, then green for go and let's ship it now ... even then, I wouldn't buy it
though, just like I haven't bought GURPS Traveller either.]

That's why.

Andy

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 01:56:03 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:57:58 +0300
From: Niko Mikkanen <niko.mikkanen@capslock.fi>
Organization: Capslock Oy
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Eek!

http://www.newsobserver.com/monday/business/Story/419010p-414835c.html

GNiko

-- 
I have plenty of talent and vision. I just don't give a damn.
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 04:11:27 2001
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From: "Peter L.S Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
References: <memo.772394@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [TML] OT : Icosahedriphobia
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 12:09:14 +0100
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Mexal wrote:
> The d20 system has an elegance to it... but anyway, how much does
> the 'random factor mechanic' you use matter? We're ROLE-playing
> not ROLL-playing.

One problem with this argument is that Traveller is not *just* an
RPG, its also a simulation of sorts.  For years  members  of  the
TML have fleshed out the Traveller Universe  based  on  analysing
and extrapolating from canon material: the size of  the  Imperial
budget, the amount of interstellar  shipping,  what  technologies
are prevalant and how that impacts the nature of the battlefield,
etc.

Change  the  game  mechanic  and  these   extrapolations   become
invalidated.

For example: if in one rule  system  a  FGMP-15  is  100%  lethal
regardless of armour but very  expensive,  and  in  another  rule
system battledress will save you and FGMP-15s are  cheaper,  then
in the second system a lot more military units  will  be  equiped
with battledress than the former.



Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)



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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 05:24:03 2001
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Niko Mikkanen wrote:
> 
> Eek!
> 
> http://www.newsobserver.com/monday/business/Story/419010p-414835c.html

The article's reference to a "HAL hypercomputer from Star
Bridge Systems"
is particularly eerie. Sounds like it's straight out of a
Traveller
campaign!

Technology Marches On!

(hope the human species doesn't get trampled)

David
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 06:13:32 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:12:04 -0400
From: "Eric A. Rhude" <ateno@panix.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Converting Striker to Traveller, Nicely
Message-ID: <20010411091204.A26202@panix.com>
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david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> Dear Folks -
> 
> David Shayne wrote:
> >I've been toying with the
> >Idea of using the Striker rules as the basis for the combat
> >system in my upcoming CT campaign but I have a bit of a
> >problem with the damage conversions. It's just to grainy
> >for role playing. Has anybody used these rules in their
> >games? And if so how did you work damage?
> 
> Try looking at my Combat Rules page:
>      Tavonni Repair Bays ==> Hyphen's Combat Rules ==> Weapons Tables
> 
<BIG Snip>
> 
> See what you think and let me know any comments.

David, Gentlemen and Ladies:

I am just brand new to this group ( a whole day now), and 
have played Classic traveller since about 1981-1982.

The topic of discussion above was something our group of 
players involved themselves in also.

In a nutshell, we used the pent and armor values from Striker and 
would compare them and roll a 12 sided dice (yes I know 
not 6 sided) and add pent and subtract armor, 

A result of 9 or above was full damage, and for each less
was -1 to the die each, so a Rifle doing 2d6 with penatration 
of 3 hitting cloth (av5) and rolling a 9 on the d12 would 
be a result of 7 (9 + 3 - 5) or -2 per die, and say the 
roll was a 5 and a 3 the damage inflicted would be 4 total.

A result of 2 or less was no damage and the result of 
-6 per die was there for weapons that do Xd6 + y  (example
2d6 + 4).  

Would the august audience be interested in a full 
explanation?

Also I have a url that might be in interest.

http://www.pbm.com/dice/

I work in NYC, NY and live in Eastern Long island
and am male and almost 40 for those taking stats.

Eric Rhude

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 06:14:37 2001
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Check their hardware out - 600,000 times _FASTER_ than a Pentium, 12.8
Teraflops ... scary,scary stuff ...

http://www.starbridgesystems.com/

No wonder they named it HAL.

Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of D. Smart
Sent: 11 April 2001 13:25
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Oh my God! The Virus is real!


Niko Mikkanen wrote:
>
> Eek!
>
> http://www.newsobserver.com/monday/business/Story/419010p-414835c.html

The article's reference to a "HAL hypercomputer from Star
Bridge Systems"
is particularly eerie. Sounds like it's straight out of a
Traveller
campaign!

Technology Marches On!

(hope the human species doesn't get trampled)

David
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 06:19:28 2001
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From: LB2NOLA@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:19:08 EDT
Subject: [TML] Confused about Law Levels...(CT)
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Howdy all, semi-newbie here, so please be gentle :)

I'm thinking of setting a campaign in the New Islands sub-sector, and while 
researching the UPP's, I came across Law Levels of A and above.  Scratching 
my head, I went to Book 6 (nothing was mentioned in #3), and found out that 
Law Level A+ means no weapons permitted at all.  This I get, yet I was 
wondering what the differance would be between, say Law Level A and Level C?  
Can anyone give me any clues?  Thanks in advance!

Clark
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 06:34:11 2001
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From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [TML] Confused about Law Levels...(CT)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:32:16 -0400
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>This I get, yet I was wondering what the differance would be between, say 
>Law Level A and Level C? Can anyone give me any clues?  Thanks in advance!

I believe Classic Traveller had a 2D throw against Law Level used to avoid 
petty harassment dirtside. Higher law levels would make the throw harder 
(especially Level D+, which would need modifiers for any chance of success).

Cheers,
Paul Drye

_________________________________________________________________________
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 06:49:10 2001
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To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Welcome newbies (was RE: [TML] Converting Striker to Traveller, Nicely)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:50:37 -0400
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Welcome to the wobbly universe of the TML. To learn more about us and blab
more about yourself, visit http://www.downport.com/understanding/TML.html,
which is our "Citizens of the TML" listing.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Eric A. Rhude

I work in NYC, NY and live in Eastern Long island
and am male and almost 40 for those taking stats.

Eric Rhude


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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 06:57:23 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:57:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Douglas Sinclair <dns@smtp.interlog.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
cc: gridlore@mindspring.com
Subject: [TML] Density of batteries
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Another datapoint.  A Sanyo NiCd D-cell masses 145g and displaces 52.6 mL.
This gives a density of 2.75 g/mL.  Note, however, that this cell is
cylindrical.  When a number are arranged into a battery pack there is some
wasted space.  The density of an optimal pack is only 2.5 g/mL.

Doug

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 07:04:53 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:00:13 -0400
From: "Eric A. Rhude" <ateno@panix.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Confused about Law Levels...(CT)
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Paul Drye wrote:
> >This I get, yet I was wondering what the differance would be between, say 
> >Law Level A and Level C? Can anyone give me any clues?  Thanks in advance!
> 
> I believe Classic Traveller had a 2D throw against Law Level used to avoid 
> petty harassment dirtside. Higher law levels would make the throw harder 
> (especially Level D+, which would need modifiers for any chance of success).
> 
> Cheers,
> Paul Drye


Or even ownership of knives at home only could 
be illegal, or clubs and baseball bats.

Yes it can get silly from where we are looking at from.

Eric Rhude
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 07:09:14 2001
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Subject: Re: [TML] Converting Striker to Traveller, Nicely
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<<Would the august audience be interested in a full explanation?>>

Yes.  Yes it would.


=====
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 07:09:56 2001
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Subject: Re: [TML] Confused about Law Levels...(CT)
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The level of harrassment by local authorities ...

--- LB2NOLA@aol.com wrote:
> Howdy all, semi-newbie here, so please be gentle :)
> 
> I'm thinking of setting a campaign in the New Islands sub-sector, and
> while 
> researching the UPP's, I came across Law Levels of A and above. 
> Scratching 
> my head, I went to Book 6 (nothing was mentioned in #3), and found
> out that 
> Law Level A+ means no weapons permitted at all.  This I get, yet I
> was 
> wondering what the differance would be between, say Law Level A and
> Level C?  
> Can anyone give me any clues?  Thanks in advance!
> 
> Clark
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 07:16:45 2001
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Subject: RE: [TML] OT : Icosahedriphobia [LONG]
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At 09:03 PM 4/10/01 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi
>
>Ok, so why I am so opposed to d20 ? Why don't I want to see d20 Traveller,
>( or for that matter, d20 Call Of Cthulhu, RuneQuest, Elric! ... the list
>goes on ... )
>
>Basically, because AD&D and now d20 have always seemed inconsistent,
>arbitrary, unfair.

Since AD&D 3E is, in terms of game mechanics, a completely new game 
designed from the ground up, blaming it for the shortcomings of previous 
versions strikes *me* as unfair.  And D20 should be judged on its own 
merits.    I'm not actually very familiar with the D20 engine, but I 
question whether it's necessary to embrace every aspect of D&D in order to 
use them.

>Alignments - too black and white.

Are alignments an inseparable part of the D20 engine?  I rather doubt 
it.  Even for D&D players, alignment is optional; many groups simply ignore it.

>Classes - these *really* irk me. The whole idea that instead of gradual
>progression, one day you get enough experience points to exceed a level
>threshold and suddenly all of your related abilities improve is just too
>abstract for me.

I can certainly understand that, but the same question applies: are classes 
*required* for any game that uses the d20 engine.  I find that hard to believe.


>You should strive to build an individual, not clone a template.

GURPS has templates, too.

>Hit Points - These should not be related to experience. At least if they
>are, why should an expert fighter be able to apply them (representing his
>skill at dodging sword blows et al) to say, a falling rock that takes him by
>surprise ?

He can't.  He has never been able to, in any version of D&D.  The rules 
make that quite clear.

>Armour - Instead of blocking damage, this makes it harder to deliver a blow.

There is no difference.  in D&D, a "hit" is not a blow that makes physical 
contact; it's a blow that inflicts damage.

>Saving Throws - These were, and may well be, still very arbitrary. I'd
>prefer saving throws based more on characteristics and/or skills, where a
>character's abilities count. It's what makes characters more individual.

Have you *read* the D&D 3E rules?  Saving throws are based *directly* on 
ability scores.

>Weapons - AD&D used to be that a character was near enough equally
>proficient in all weapons depending on their level of experience. I don't
>know about d20, but if to hit numbers are more dependent on class and level
>than skill and specialisation then I would believe that this is not terribly
>realistic either.

How *realistic* was the combat system in CT?

This is of course a matter of taste, but I don't consider completely 
realism in a combat system to be achievable or even desirable.  Any attempt 
to realistically model combat will produce a system so complicated that it 
will bog down play and interfere with the process of having fun.  But then 
I'm much more inclined to what GURPS calls cinematic play.

>Traveller (be it Classic, Mega or T4) is a well rounded, well balanced,
>consistent system, with thousands of man hours of play testing. Traveller
>and other second generation roleplaying games produced around '77-'79, like
>RuneQuest and later Call Of Cthulhu, are games which allow a great deal of
>flexibility whilst providing a "realistic", consistent framework to play in.
>They encourage individuals and better roleplaying as a result.

I played CT and loved it.  But what's important to me is the setting, not 
the rules.  I want to start a Traveller campaign for my current gaming 
group, so I've decided to go with GURPS Traveller because it's available; 
I'm not going to ask my players to scour used bookstores or eBay for 
out-of-print materials.  As long as the rules work reasonably well, I don't 
care where they come from.  It's the Traveller background and history that 
matter to me.

If, ten years from now, the only version of Traveller in print is a d20 
one, that's what I'll use.

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 07:26:55 2001
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Subject: Re: [TML] OT : Icosahedriphobia
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At 12:09 PM 4/11/01 +0100, you wrote:

>One problem with this argument is that Traveller is not *just* an
>RPG, its also a simulation of sorts.  For years  members  of  the
>TML have fleshed out the Traveller Universe  based  on  analysing
>and extrapolating from canon material: the size of  the  Imperial
>budget, the amount of interstellar  shipping,  what  technologies
>are prevalant and how that impacts the nature of the battlefield,
>etc.
>
>Change  the  game  mechanic  and  these   extrapolations   become
>invalidated.

That is certainly a significant consideration for some players of the 
game.  But not everyone who plays Traveller is a gearhead.

For me, it's the setting and history that matter.  As long as those remain 
more or less intact, I'll be happy with any rule set that works OK.  On the 
other hand, if the setting is trashed, I tend to lose 
interest.  MegaTraveller and TNE drove me away, and GURPS Traveller brought 
me back.

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 07:31:21 2001
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Subject: RE: [TML] Confused about Law Levels...(CT)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:32:58 -0400
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I should think that A would cover anything that could be used as a weapon or
any aggressive act. Then you could proceed to signs of possible aggressive
ideas... then they get into your head. As far as harassment by authorities,
I'd think that at LL A all foreigners would receive an "escort" or
"interpreter" when leaving the spaceport, like you or I would have if we
visited North Korea.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Eric A. Rhude
Or even ownership of knives at home only could
be illegal, or clubs and baseball bats.

Yes it can get silly from where we are looking at from.

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 07:31:32 2001
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From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: [TML] OT : Icosahedriphobia
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In-Reply-To: <00ab01c0c278$06e4dce0$5e2cf7c2@gertrude>
Greetings dear hearts.

Peter Trevor wrote: 

"One problem with this argument is that Traveller is not *just* an
RPG, its also a simulation of sorts.  For years  members  of  the
TML have fleshed out the Traveller Universe  based  on  analysing
and extrapolating from canon material: the size of  the  Imperial
budget, the amount of interstellar  shipping,  what  technologies
are prevalant and how that impacts the nature of the battlefield,
etc.

"Change  the  game  mechanic  and  these   extrapolations   become
invalidated."

I don't see a connection between creating an internally-consistent 
socio-economic system and the game system resolution mechanic.

If, taking his example, you wish to use a d20 mechanic and have 
Battledress invariably save your hide from a direct FGMP-15 blast, all you 
need to do is set the AC bonus of said Battledress to something in excess 
of the maximum damage a FGMP-15 can do.

As it happens, I am an enthusiast for the 'internally consistent game 
setting' concept - ALL the settings I write, irrespective of genre or rule 
system used, are created with that end in mind. How else do I achieve my 
overall aim of a believeable alternate reality?

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 07:53:40 2001
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To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: Welcome newbies
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How cool, done.

Eric

Swordy wrote:
> Welcome to the wobbly universe of the TML. To learn more about us and blab
> more about yourself, visit http://www.downport.com/understanding/TML.html,
> which is our "Citizens of the TML" listing.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Eric A. Rhude
> 
> I work in NYC, NY and live in Eastern Long island
> and am male and almost 40 for those taking stats.
> 
> Eric Rhude
> 
> 
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Andy writes:
>Hi
>Ok, so why I am so opposed to d20 ?
<snipped>
>Basically, because AD&D and now d20 have always seemed inconsistent,
>arbitrary, unfair. In short, look at these reasons -
>Alignments - too black and white.
<snipped>
>Classes - these *really* irk me.
<snipped>
>Hit Points - These should not be related to experience.
<snipped>
>Wounds - I understand that d20 has changed this somewhat, and now there is
an equivalent to the wounding in Traveller
<snipped>
>Armour - Instead of blocking damage, this makes it harder to deliver a blow.
>I don't agree with this either ; I much prefer systems based on absorbing
>damage as this makes more sense. No one, no matter how skilled, is going to
>find a weakpoint that bypasses all-encompassing armour like say basic combat
>armour. What they are going to do is perhaps deliver a blow with their
>firearm that penetrates the armour. later Traveller systems were all about
>Penetration and Attenuation of the same ; I prefer this mechanism as it is
>more realistic.
>Magick - Don't go there.
<snipped>
>Saving Throws - These were, and may well be, still very arbitrary.
<snipped>
>Weapons - AD&D used to be that a character was near enough equally
>proficient in all weapons depending on their level of experience.
<snipped>
>I could go on, I won't. I personally don't like d20 for the reasons above.
>If you do, fair enough. What would be a terrible shame though is that if
>effort goes into producing products and supplements for d20, that's effort
>taken away from developing for the original games system, and that I feel is
>a considerable loss. I feel the same about GURPS Traveller, and I felt the
>same about TNE - I believe that the best way forward is for a game system to
>be supported and developed, not replaced entirely.
>Traveller (be it Classic, Mega or T4) is a well rounded, well balanced,
>consistent system, with thousands of man hours of play testing. Traveller
>and other second generation roleplaying games produced around '77-'79, like
>RuneQuest and later Call Of Cthulhu, are games which allow a great deal of
>flexibility whilst providing a "realistic", consistent framework to play in.
>They encourage individuals and better roleplaying as a result.
>d20 is not flexible, and enforces stereotypical characters and arbitrary
>rules systems.
<snipped>

        I'm not sure where to start.  You are discussing "d20" as if it is a
        particular game system of rules, rather than a die which may be
        used in any number of different game systems.  If that was the
        intent, then I can understand some of your arguments but not why
        using a 20-sided die would be a disaster for Traveller.  If you
        simply object to the use of a 20-sided die, then I do not understand
        your arguments at all.  The particular die in use has no bearing on
        whether or not a system has alignments, classes, hit points,
        wounds, armour, magic, saving throws, weapons proficiencies,
        etc. a la AD&D.

        Interestingly enough, CT has an armour system that is not unlike
        that of AD&D in as far as armour does not reduce damage caused
        by a hit.  Given that you feel that it "would be a terrible shame... if
        effort goes into producing products and supplements for d20, that's
        effort taken away from developing for the original games system",
        and "the best way forward is for a game system to be supported
        and developed, not replaced entirely.", presumably you feel that
        replacing the armour system of CT would be a bad thing?

        Don't get me wrong, I like keeping Traveller a d6-using system, and
        converting between incarnations is easier when they all use a "roll
        2d6 to hit" approach.  That being said, there is nothing about using
        a d20 that automatically makes a system inflexible, or enforces
        stereotypical characters and arbitrary rules.

Peez

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 08:06:44 2001
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Gerry and all:

Now I have to go and write it up,  ok give me some time.

Eric

Gerry Harris wrote:
> 
> <<Would the august audience be interested in a full explanation?>>
> 
> Yes.  Yes it would.
> 
> 
> =====
> Gerry Harris
> **********************************************************************************************
> ther Traveller  http://www.aethertraveller.com 
> Soldier's Companion  http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
> **********************************************************************************************
> "Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war"  Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1
> **********************************************************************************************
> 
> __________________________________________________
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 08:15:31 2001
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From: "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
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Subject: RE: [TML] OT : Icosahedriphobia [LONG]
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:14:42 +0100
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Hi,

> GURPS has templates, too.

This is not a selling point in my opinion :-)

> He can't.  He has never been able to, in any version of D&D.  The rules
> make that quite clear.

Oh, hogwash. Your fighter has 67hp, and gets hit by a rock, and takes 30hp
damage in D&D. End of argument. The fact that his 67hp represent his
experience at least in part is suddenly (and conveniently) forgotten. _This_
is the case in D&D and always has been.

Furthermore, if this was a glancing blow and only did say 6 pts of damage,
the fighter takes this damage _regardless_ of the sort of armour he's
wearing. In Traveller, you could assign a Pen/Atten rating to the rock ; in
RuneQuest, the armour would absorb some of the damage depending on type -
but in d20, the armour is suddenly irrelevant. Explain that one.

> There is no difference.  in D&D, a "hit" is not a blow that makes physical
> contact; it's a blow that inflicts damage.

Exactly my point - in D&D you either do or you don't. There is no scope for
"almost", which reduces the realism somewhat (on which point, more below).

> Have you *read* the D&D 3E rules?  Saving throws are based *directly* on
ability scores.

I did say "may well be", I don't have the rules to hand. In any case, I'd
rather have some make a dex task, or a dodge roll, or whatever - at least
then it has some relation to "getting out of the way".

> How *realistic* was the combat system in CT?

You got shot, you pretty much died there and then. I'd say that was good
enough for me.

> This is of course a matter of taste, but I don't consider completely
> realism in a combat system to be achievable or even desirable.

or fair ? The more abstract, the more it relies on the referee, the easier
it is to make unfair decisions, even accidentally, ... this is the path to
the Dark Side ...

> But then I'm much more inclined to what GURPS calls cinematic play.

Well, as you say, this is a matter of taste. But my group are opposed to
what we call "A-Team" combat - you blow them up and they walk away shaking
their heads, but no one gets hurt. Far better that you have realistic,
deadly combat, as then it discourages violence in the first place (people
have to think their way out of situations rather than blast their way out)
and generally improves the quality of play. Combat has always been a last
resort rather than a first port of call for us.

> I played CT and loved it.  But what's important to me is the setting, not
> the rules.  I want to start a Traveller campaign for my current gaming
> group, so I've decided to go with GURPS Traveller because it's available;
> I'm not going to ask my players to scour used bookstores or eBay for
> out-of-print materials.  As long as the rules work reasonably well, I
don't
> care where they come from.  It's the Traveller background and history that
> matter to me.

And that Traveller history and background is upset if you change the rules
and hence the balance of situations - that point about the FGMP someone else
made recently comes to mind. It's like revising the vehicle design system so
that a ship component has less mass - the knock on effect is that it can
further or faster, and that might change the balance in starship combat.
Sure you can fudge this, may be counterbalance it, but at the end of the day
the background that's so important to you is undermined.

> If, ten years from now, the only version of Traveller in print is a d20
> one, that's what I'll use.

Good for you. I won't be.

Andy

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 08:43:35 2001
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Subject: [TML] Re: Iccosahedraphobia
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:43:15 -0000
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Just my 0.02Cr's-worth.

I believe someone else has mentioned T:TNE already, and I seem to recall 
that the last MT "supplement" (darnit, I cannot remember what it was called! 
  Arrggghh!) had a conversion 'ruleset' for transferring MT characters to 
TNE.  And I believe there are several
T:TNE had the great (IMNSHO) advantage that it was built on the same 'GDW 
House' system as Twilight 2000 2nd.ed and Dark Conspiracy - which started 
off as D10 but then 'mutated' into a D20 system...
But then I think that rain is wet - how you feel about it may be a different 
matter.

Jeff the Forgetful
9CA889 Rogue-1 Fighter-2 Mage-0 Smarta**-LOTS
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 08:45:51 2001
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Subject: RE: [TML] OT : Icosahedriphobia
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:45:06 +0100
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Hi,

> If, taking his example, you wish to use a d20 mechanic and have
> Battledress invariably save your hide from a direct FGMP-15 blast, all you
> need to do is set the AC bonus of said Battledress to something in excess
> of the maximum damage a FGMP-15 can do.

I think that the point here was that if you do have to make this change,
then the rules system does not reflect Traveller canon as published.
Moreover, if you have to make many such changes, then how far do you go ?
Won't this undermine what little consistency there was in d20 in the first
place ? Why not just stick to the original rules, where no such changes were
necessary at all to keep canon and/or background the same ? If canon is
important to you, then surely the rules system is too. (At this stage I must
admit that canon is not that important to me ... I pretty much go with it up
until 1108-ish, thereafter I change things a lot. There's no rebellion or
virus in my campaign).

I guess my real question is -

Why change rules systems ? What do people think is so _wrong_ with d6
Traveller (be it C:T, Mega or T4) that it can only be fixed with a complete
rewrite (TNE, GURPS, d20) ? Is it really that
unplayable/complex/unfair/out-of-date/whatever ? I don't think so, it
wouldn't be as nearly popular as it obviously is if that were the case.
Sure, we all play variations and house rules, but the underlying engine is
pretty much the same across all of them. For example, I use "On Target",
from White Dwarf 28, for wounds against PCs and important NPCs. However, my
group's characters are still compatible with the core game, and people can
and have played them elsewhere.

Andy






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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 08:56:36 2001
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From: AuricTech Shipyards <aurictech@esweeet.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Baycon
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--- david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
> wrote:
>Dear Folks -
>
>Doug wrote:
>>The con is Memorial Day weekend, at the San Jose Doubletree Inn.  We are
>>getting real close to the 20th anniversary, which should be quite a bash.
>
>Er, that's the 26th-28 May, is it (assumed from an entry in my Franklin
>Covey diary)??

Accordiong to the Web site, it's 25-28 May 2001.

http://www.baycon.org
>
>>There will be the Traveller in SF Party Saturday and Sunday nights.

"Keeping the flame - even in the fog!"  [IIRC]
>
>So, for us sad and poor non-US TMLer's, are you attaching a webcam to a
>laptop and allowing us to drop in for a virtual party? ("Poor" because we
>can't afford to fly over, and "sad" for even suggesting this idea in the
>first place. Still, it would be a novelty!)

Well, I'm planning to send a video to Doug, so that I can attend virtually (I attended last year from Baton Rouge, LA, but this year I'm deployed).  If a webcam is impractical, perhaps the god folks who attend can tape something from the con for those of us who can't attend....




==
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
TML Great Middle-Aged One
Once and Future Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List

http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 09:09:47 2001
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To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Baycon
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:10:46 -0700
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THAT can certainly be arranged.  I've got the hardware.  Anyone wanna' play
reporter to my cameraman?

Jesse




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of AuricTech Shipyards
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 8:56 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Baycon
>
>
>
>
> --- david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
> > wrote:
> >Dear Folks -
> >
> >Doug wrote:
> >>The con is Memorial Day weekend, at the San Jose Doubletree Inn.  We are
> >>getting real close to the 20th anniversary, which should be
> quite a bash.
> >
> >Er, that's the 26th-28 May, is it (assumed from an entry in my Franklin
> >Covey diary)??
>
> Accordiong to the Web site, it's 25-28 May 2001.
>
> http://www.baycon.org
> >
> >>There will be the Traveller in SF Party Saturday and Sunday nights.
>
> "Keeping the flame - even in the fog!"  [IIRC]
> >
> >So, for us sad and poor non-US TMLer's, are you attaching a webcam to a
> >laptop and allowing us to drop in for a virtual party? ("Poor" because we
> >can't afford to fly over, and "sad" for even suggesting this idea in the
> >first place. Still, it would be a novelty!)
>
> Well, I'm planning to send a video to Doug, so that I can attend
> virtually (I attended last year from Baton Rouge, LA, but this
> year I'm deployed).  If a webcam is impractical, perhaps the god
> folks who attend can tape something from the con for those of us
> who can't attend....
>
>
>
>
> ==
> AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
> "Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
> TML Great Middle-Aged One
> Once and Future Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
>
> http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Free eSweeet Mail - http://www.esweeet.com
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 09:23:54 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:23:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: [TML] re: Baycon
To: a a tml Tod <tml@travellercentral.com>,
   in SF ab traveller <travellerinsf@onelist.com>
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>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au

>So, for us sad and poor non-US TMLer's, are you attaching a webcam to a
>laptop and allowing us to drop in for a virtual party? ("Poor" because we
>can't afford to fly over, and "sad" for even suggesting this idea in the
>first place. Still, it would be a novelty!)

Virtual guests would give the party an appropriate science fiction feel. 
Surely there are enough Travellers here in the Silicon Valley that we can
find equipment and talent to make this happen.

--Glenn


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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 09:25:08 2001
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Subject: RE: [TML] RE: (OT) Icosahedriphobia (longish)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 17:24:28 +0100
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Hi

>        I'm not sure where to start.  You are discussing "d20" as if it is
a
>        particular game system of rules

You've obviously not heard of the d20 system, and are missing the point as a
result.
Check out www.opengamingfoundation.org then read my email afterwards, it
might make more sense.

Regards

Andy


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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 09:34:45 2001
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Subject: Re: [TML] Converting Striker to Traveller, Nicely
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>From: "Eric A. Rhude" <ateno@panix.com>

>I am just brand new to this group ( a whole day now), and 
>have played Classic traveller since about 1981-1982.

Should his newbie essay be (1) set forth in detail how someone in the
United States could play Traveller for 20 years and not become involved in
the TML or (2) provide "a full explanation" of the Striker-Traveller
conversion that his group has used?

--Glenn

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>Why change rules systems ? What do people think is so _wrong_ with d6
>Traveller (be it C:T, Mega or T4) that it can only be fixed with a complete
>rewrite (TNE, GURPS, d20) ?

I have nothing against the original rules. in fact i am running a campain in
CT at this moment. I will probably always use CT . Why? because quite
honestly i dont have time in my life to go out buy a new set of rules and
relearn them. it is not hard to get the old core books now that they have
been republished.

But Like many people have said. it is not the rules for fighting that matter
to me. what matters to me is the story. truthfully i like CT for the fact
that it ahs a few skills and basic attirbutes for the charicters. it in my
opinion forces them to develope the charicter more. And yes combat is
extremly dangerous one of my players found out last sunday just how
dangerous. Seeing as he was new to the game i did not let him die from his
own mistakes (High explosives and small confined areas dont mix as he found
out8P ). So i think players tend to think their way out of situations rather
than fight their way out.

Lots of people really dont care what rules you use i dont think. some do.
you cant please everyone. Some will rejoice at the site of a new d20 system
(build statues and temples to it, create holdiays around it and sacrifice
small houshold pets in its honor) others will revile it (call it satan
incarnite, Burn the books in huge piles, and sacrifice small household pets
to the d6)

Truth is i am willing to bet there is enough variation between campains that
it would blow peoples minds. they would yell "how can you do that it is not
canon" or maybe "Woah dude umm like i never force my chars to follow that
rule". it is all a matter of perspective on what you like and dont like so
lets not kill each other over a game system that doesnt (as of yet) exist.

Bill

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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2653.12">
<TITLE>RE: [TML] OT : Icosahedriphobia</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Why change rules systems ? What do people think =
is so _wrong_ with d6</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Traveller (be it C:T, Mega or T4) that it can =
only be fixed with a complete</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;rewrite (TNE, GURPS, d20) ?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I have nothing against the original rules. in fact i =
am running a campain in CT at this moment. I will probably always use =
CT . Why? because quite honestly i dont have time in my life to go out =
buy a new set of rules and relearn them. it is not hard to get the old =
core books now that they have been republished.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>But Like many people have said. it is not the rules =
for fighting that matter to me. what matters to me is the story. =
truthfully i like CT for the fact that it ahs a few skills and basic =
attirbutes for the charicters. it in my opinion forces them to develope =
the charicter more. And yes combat is extremly dangerous one of my =
players found out last sunday just how dangerous. Seeing as he was new =
to the game i did not let him die from his own mistakes (High =
explosives and small confined areas dont mix as he found out8P ). So i =
think players tend to think their way out of situations rather than =
fight their way out.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Lots of people really dont care what rules you use i =
dont think. some do. you cant please everyone. Some will rejoice at the =
site of a new d20 system (build statues and temples to it, create =
holdiays around it and sacrifice small houshold pets in its honor) =
others will revile it (call it satan incarnite, Burn the books in huge =
piles, and sacrifice small household pets to the d6)</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Truth is i am willing to bet there is enough =
variation between campains that it would blow peoples minds. they would =
yell &quot;how can you do that it is not canon&quot; or maybe =
&quot;Woah dude umm like i never force my chars to follow that =
rule&quot;. it is all a matter of perspective on what you like and dont =
like so lets not kill each other over a game system that doesnt (as of =
yet) exist.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Bill</FONT>
</P>

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 10:01:00 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:54:34 -0700
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Confused about Law Levels...(CT)
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At 09:19 AM 04/11/01 EDT, you wrote:

>I'm thinking of setting a campaign in the New Islands sub-sector, and while 
>researching the UPP's, I came across Law Levels of A and above.  Scratching 
>my head, I went to Book 6 (nothing was mentioned in #3), and found out that 
>Law Level A+ means no weapons permitted at all.  This I get, yet I was 
>wondering what the differance would be between, say Law Level A and Level
C?  
>Can anyone give me any clues?  Thanks in advance!

Increasing levels of harassment and intrusion by police authorities.  More
laws (with harsher penalties) governing every aspect of daily life.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html

Author of GT: Ground Forces                               
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 10:07:42 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:07:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Confused about Law Levels...(CT)
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>From: "Eric A. Rhude" <ateno@panix.com>

>Or even ownership of knives at home only could be illegal, or clubs and
>baseball bats.
>
>Yes it can get silly from where we are looking at from.

How about: at very high law levels, study of any martial arts (except by
law enforcement and military personnel) becomes illegal.  At even higher
levels, martial arts and weapons texts are also illegal.

--Glenn

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 10:09:54 2001
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From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Confused about Law Levels...(CT)
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>From: "Swordy" <swordworlder@earthlink.net>

>I should think that A would cover anything that could be used as a weapon

>or any aggressive act. 

Hapkido, and a Japanese art whose name I don't recall, teach the use of
ordinary objects as weapons:  pens, books, keys, ID cards, etc.

--Glenn

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 10:25:13 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:21:32 -0700
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From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RE: (OT) Icosahedriphobia (longish)
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At 10:55 AM 04/11/01 -0400, you wrote:
>        I'm not sure where to start.  You are discussing "d20" as if it is a
>        particular game system of rules, rather than a die which may be
>        used in any number of different game systems.

d20 is the WoTC game engine that is used in Dungeons and Dragons 3rd
Edition, and is freely avalible for anyone to use under an open license
scheme.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 10:25:14 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:19:51 -0700
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From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] OT : Icosahedriphobia [LONG]
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At 04:14 PM 04/11/01 +0100, you wrote:

>> He can't.  He has never been able to, in any version of D&D.  The rules
>> make that quite clear.
>
>Oh, hogwash. Your fighter has 67hp, and gets hit by a rock, and takes 30hp
>damage in D&D. End of argument. The fact that his 67hp represent his
>experience at least in part is suddenly (and conveniently) forgotten. _This_
>is the case in D&D and always has been.

I refer to pages 128-129 of the D&D 3e Player's Handbook.

To wit:  Helpless characters (such as one bound up tightly with his head on
the chopping block) can be killed in a single round regardless of hit
points.  All the HP in the world aren't going to stop that axe from
severing your head from the rest of your body.

>Furthermore, if this was a glancing blow and only did say 6 pts of damage,
>the fighter takes this damage _regardless_ of the sort of armour he's
>wearing. In Traveller, you could assign a Pen/Atten rating to the rock ; in
>RuneQuest, the armour would absorb some of the damage depending on type -
>but in d20, the armour is suddenly irrelevant. Explain that one.

I don't really see this.  In this trap situation, you would make a reflexes
save to get out of the way of the trap.  Being hit be a ton of rock is
going to hurt, even if you are in full plate +5. 

>> There is no difference.  in D&D, a "hit" is not a blow that makes physical
>> contact; it's a blow that inflicts damage.
>
>Exactly my point - in D&D you either do or you don't. There is no scope for
>"almost", which reduces the realism somewhat (on which point, more below).

Sure there is!  If you need to roll a 13 on the die to hit, and you roll a
12, roleplay it! "You swing at the hobgoblin chieftain, but your blow
slides of his shield."

>> Have you *read* the D&D 3E rules?  Saving throws are based *directly* on
>ability scores.
>
>I did say "may well be", I don't have the rules to hand. In any case, I'd
>rather have some make a dex task, or a dodge roll, or whatever - at least
>then it has some relation to "getting out of the way".

The Reflexes Save is based on the character's dexterity, modified by
character class and level.  In addition, you can take Feats like Dodge and
Mobility to improve your ability to get out of the way of the enemy's attacks.

>> How *realistic* was the combat system in CT?
>
>You got shot, you pretty much died there and then. I'd say that was good
>enough for me.

In CT, armor detracted from the to-hit roll.  Which is exactly what you are
complaining about here.  The separation of penetration and damage didn't
come until MegaTraveller.

Also, very few people were ever killed outright in CT from gunshots.  A CT
Rifle did 3d6.  Average damage 10.5.  Joe Average (UPP 777777) Needs to
take 21 hits before he is dead.  Odds are he is unconscious, but CT had no
rules for bleeding to death.  In fact, Joe wakes up after ten minutes.
(Book 1, p. 34)

>> This is of course a matter of taste, but I don't consider completely
>> realism in a combat system to be achievable or even desirable.
>
>or fair ? The more abstract, the more it relies on the referee, the easier
>it is to make unfair decisions, even accidentally, ... this is the path to
>the Dark Side ...

Then order ACQ.  :)  This is the anal-retentive GM's dream combat system
for Traveller.  Based on real world combat, most characters who get into
firefights will die.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 10:29:36 2001
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From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] re: Baycon
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:30:40 -0700
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I've no doubt we can get the equipment ($20k Cisco Media Server pushing
30fps 1200k stream anyone, or should we use our multicast case pushing 17fps
1200k, 10fps 500k, or 3fps 100k Unix flavored).  Or hell, I can just use the
Logitech webcam & notebook I have on my desk and throw it up on
Spotlife.com.  Network bandwidth in the hotel would be the issue.  Doug, you
have any idea what we're dealing with?

Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Glenn Goffin
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 9:24 AM
> To: a a tml Tod; in SF ab traveller
> Subject: [TML] re: Baycon
>
>
> >From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
>
> >So, for us sad and poor non-US TMLer's, are you attaching a webcam to a
> >laptop and allowing us to drop in for a virtual party? ("Poor" because we
> >can't afford to fly over, and "sad" for even suggesting this idea in the
> >first place. Still, it would be a novelty!)
>
> Virtual guests would give the party an appropriate science fiction feel.
> Surely there are enough Travellers here in the Silicon Valley that we can
> find equipment and talent to make this happen.
>
> --Glenn
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 10:30:50 2001
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Subject: RE: [TML] Way OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot
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Where is this shoot?

-----Original Message-----
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 11:22 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Way OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot


In mail you write:

> I need a definite headcount of the folks who planto hang out with
> me (or stay at my house, or both) for the ARPC Spring Full-Auto
> Shoot.  The 2 definites that I have are Jesse DeGraff and Tod Glenn.

When *is* the shoot again?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Where is this shoot?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com">mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com</=
A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 11:22 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: tml@travellercentral.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [TML] Way OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto =
Shoot</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>In mail you write:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I need a definite headcount of the folks who =
planto hang out with</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; me (or stay at my house, or both) for the ARPC =
Spring Full-Auto</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Shoot.&nbsp; The 2 definites that I have are =
Jesse DeGraff and Tod Glenn.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>When *is* the shoot again?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; &lt;--preferred</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&lt;--last resort</FONT>
</P>

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 10:37:02 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:41:22 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com>
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Glenn Goffin wrote:
> 
> Hapkido, and a Japanese art whose name I don't recall, teach the use of
> ordinary objects as weapons:  pens, books, keys, ID cards, etc.

Glenn, as a lawyer, surely you're already familiar with the pen as a
weapon. Besides, there are many ways to kill a man

Dear Local Police Chief,

It was with great shock yesterday that I noticed a videotape
in my neighbour's garbage with the label "Offensive Pornography
Involving Children of Local Police Officers"...

Ethan
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 10:37:44 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:37:27 +0300 (EET DST)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Baycon
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[Webcam in Baycon Traveller party]
On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Jesse Degraff wrote:
> THAT can certainly be arranged.  I've got the hardware.  Anyone wanna' play
> reporter to my cameraman?

Hm, perhaps the time of the party could also be useful. Preferably in
some comprehensible units, like GMT. B-)

(I have been calculating satellite orbits for almost two days now, my
brains can't cope with any time or degree conversion. Studying is such fun
some days...)

And mayhaps an open IRC client (and a party channel?) could be used, too.
Webcam feed is a bit much for my home connection. B-)

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 10:39:53 2001
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Subject: Re: [TML] OT : Icosahedriphobia [LONG]
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:21:43 PST
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In mail you write:

>>Hit Points - These should not be related to experience. At least if they
>>are, why should an expert fighter be able to apply them (representing his
>>skill at dodging sword blows et al) to say, a falling rock that takes him by
>>surprise ?
>
> He can't.  He has never been able to, in any version of D&D.  The rules 
> make that quite clear.

Want to bet? In first edition D&D they sure as hell *did* apply to that
sort of damage.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 10:53:39 2001
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From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Way OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:54:42 -0700
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RE: [TML] Way OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto ShootAlbany, Oregon.
Jesse
  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of WLane@syncata.com
  Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 10:30 AM
  To: tml@travellercentral.com
  Subject: RE: [TML] Way OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot


  Where is this shoot?

  -----Original Message-----
  From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
  Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 11:22 PM
  To: tml@travellercentral.com
  Subject: Re: [TML] Way OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot



  In mail you write:

  > I need a definite headcount of the folks who planto hang out with
  > me (or stay at my house, or both) for the ARPC Spring Full-Auto
  > Shoot.  The 2 definites that I have are Jesse DeGraff and Tod Glenn.

  When *is* the shoot again?

  --
  Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
   shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
  leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>RE: [TML] Way OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D678485117-11042001><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Albany, Oregon.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D678485117-11042001><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Jesse</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  owner-tml@travellercentral.com =
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]<B>On=20
  Behalf Of </B>WLane@syncata.com<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 11, =
2001=20
  10:30 AM<BR><B>To:</B> tml@travellercentral.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: =
[TML]=20
  Way OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>Where is this shoot?</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>From:=20
  shadow@krypton.rain.com [<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com">mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com</A=
>]</FONT>=20
  <BR><FONT size=3D2>Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 11:22 PM</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
  size=3D2>To: tml@travellercentral.com</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>Subject: Re: [TML]=20
  Way OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot</FONT> </P><BR>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>In mail you write:</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>&gt; I need a definite headcount of the folks who =
planto hang=20
  out with</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; me (or stay at my house, or =
both) for=20
  the ARPC Spring Full-Auto</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; Shoot.&nbsp; =
The 2=20
  definites that I have are Jesse DeGraff and Tod Glenn.</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>When *is* the shoot again?</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>-- </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>Leonard Erickson (aka=20
  shadow{G})</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
  =
size=3D2>&nbsp;shadow@krypton.rain.com&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;=20
  &lt;--preferred</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
  size=3D2>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&lt;--last=20
  resort</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>----</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>The Traveller Mailing =

  List.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Send email to =
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 10:53:39 2001
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From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Baycon
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:54:42 -0700
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Good ideas Mikko :)  We'll have to wait & see what the net access is like...

Jesse


> Hm, perhaps the time of the party could also be useful. Preferably in
> some comprehensible units, like GMT. B-)
>
> (I have been calculating satellite orbits for almost two days now, my
> brains can't cope with any time or degree conversion. Studying is such fun
> some days...)
>
> And mayhaps an open IRC client (and a party channel?) could be used, too.
> Webcam feed is a bit much for my home connection. B-)

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 10:57:28 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:57:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: AuricTech Shipyards <aurictech@esweeet.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Converting Striker to Traveller, Nicely
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--- Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>>From: "Eric A. Rhude" <ateno@panix.com>
>
>>I am just brand new to this group ( a whole day now), and 
>>have played Classic traveller since about 1981-1982.
>
>Should his newbie essay be (1) set forth in detail how someone in the
>United States could play Traveller for 20 years and not become involved in
>the TML or (2) provide "a full explanation" of the Striker-Traveller
>conversion that his group has used?

Yes.  It should. ;-)


==
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
TML Great Middle-Aged One
Once and Future Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List

http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html

_____________________________________________________________
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 11:12:43 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:59:13 -0700
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From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
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At 01:22 PM 04/11/01 +1000, you wrote:

>So, for us sad and poor non-US TMLer's, are you attaching a webcam to a
>laptop and allowing us to drop in for a virtual party? ("Poor" because we
>can't afford to fly over, and "sad" for even suggesting this idea in the
>first place. Still, it would be a novelty!)

The cost of the connection and open phone line is way outside our budget.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 11:25:30 2001
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From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: [TML] RE:  (OT) Icosahedriphobia
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Andy writes:
>Hi
>>I'm not sure where to start.  You are discussing "d20" as if it is a
>>particular game system of rules
>You've obviously not heard of the d20 system, and are missing the point
>as a result. Check out www.opengamingfoundation.org then read my
>email afterwards, it might make more sense.
>Regards

        I already considered that possibility, to wit:

>>I'm not sure where to start.  You are discussing "d20" as if it is a
>>particular game system of rules, rather than a die which may be
>>used in any number of different game systems.  If that was the
>>intent, then I can understand some of your arguments but not why
>>using a 20-sided die would be a disaster for Traveller.

        So should I infer that you object to the use of the "d20 system"
        as outlined at  <www.opengamingfoundation.org>, but not to
        the use of a 20-sided die in Traveller?

Peez

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 11:26:05 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:25:49 -0700
Subject: Re: [TML] Way OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot
From: Bill <beast@pacifier.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
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> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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I think the question is when... not where


Albany, Oregon.
Jesse
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of WLane@syncata.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 10:30 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Way OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot


Where is this shoot?

-----Original Message-----
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 11:22 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Way OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot

In mail you write: 

> I need a definite headcount of the folks who planto hang out with
> me (or stay at my house, or both) for the ARPC Spring Full-Auto
> Shoot.  The 2 definites that I have are Jesse DeGraff and Tod Glenn.

When *is* the shoot again?



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<TITLE>Re: [TML] Way OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">I think the question is when.=
.. not where <BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><BR>
<BR>
Albany, Oregon.<BR>
Jesse<BR>
</FONT></FONT></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<=
BR>
<B>From:</B> owner-tml@travellercentral.com [mailto:owner-tml@travellercent=
ral.com]<B>On Behalf Of </B>WLane@syncata.com<BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 11, 2001 10:30 AM<BR>
<B>To:</B> tml@travellercentral.com<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> RE: [TML] Way OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">Where is this shoot?</FONT> <BR>
<BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.co=
m]</FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 11:22 PM</FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">To: tml@travellercentral.com</FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">Subject: Re: [TML] Way OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot</FONT=
> <BR>
<BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">In mail you write:</FONT> <BR>
<BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">&gt; I need a definite headcount of the folks who planto han=
g out with</FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">&gt; me (or stay at my house, or both) for the ARPC Spring F=
ull-Auto</FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">&gt; Shoot. &nbsp;The 2 definites that I have are Jesse DeGr=
aff and Tod Glenn.</FONT> <BR>
<BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">When *is* the shoot again?</FONT> <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BODY>
</HTML>


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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 12:00:46 2001
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From: "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] OT : Icosahedriphobia [LONG]
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 19:58:59 +0100
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Douglas Berry wrote :-

> To wit:  Helpless characters (such as one bound up tightly with his head
on
> the chopping block) can be killed in a single round regardless of hit
> points.  All the HP in the world aren't going to stop that axe from
> severing your head from the rest of your body.

You missed the point. I wasn't refering to a helpless character, I was
referring to a character in a situation where his or her experience
(reflected in his or her hit points) could not be brought to bear. A
fighter, who having missed his saving throw, gets hit by a falling rock,
should not be able to bring "hit points" to his defence if they partially
represent his skill and expertise with a two handed sword.

> I don't really see this.  In this trap situation, you would make a
reflexes
> save to get out of the way of the trap.  Being hit be a ton of rock is
> going to hurt, even if you are in full plate +5.

It doesn't matter if it's 1kg or 1000kg - the fact is that armour should
absorb/block part of the damage, even if the rest kills the character.

> Sure there is!  If you need to roll a 13 on the die to hit, and you roll a
> 12, roleplay it! "You swing at the hobgoblin chieftain, but your blow
> slides of his shield."

Hobgoblins ? On the TML ? :-)

I prefer "You swing at the hobgoblin chieftain, but his shield takes most of
the blow and you only succeed in grazing his arm. He curses and brings his
mace around ... " - Simply more scope with Pen/Atten.

> In CT, armor detracted from the to-hit roll.  Which is exactly what you
are
> complaining about here.  The separation of penetration and damage didn't
> come until MegaTraveller.

Actually, I believe it was first voiced in Striker, which is where
MegaTraveller drew a lot of stuff from.
Also, I should point out that most referees I knew at the time where using
Snapshot and Striker for personal combat anyway - Snapshot gave you action
points, Striker gave you penetration, Book 1/Book 4 gave you damage.

> Also, very few people were ever killed outright in CT from gunshots.  A CT
> Rifle did 3d6.  Average damage 10.5.  Joe Average (UPP 777777) Needs to
> take 21 hits before he is dead.  Odds are he is unconscious, but CT had no
> rules for bleeding to death.  In fact, Joe wakes up after ten minutes.
> (Book 1, p. 34)

Well, almost right ... but no cigar.

First of all, the weapon of choice in my Classic Traveller days was a 4D
HEAP Snub Pistol because of the interchangable rounds and low recoil, plus
the average Dex requirement. 4D has an average of 14 points.

Secondly, first blood is applied solely to one characteristic (Bk 1,
Characters and Combat, Page 30, under Combat resolution) and may
incapacitate or even kill as a result. Even 3D to one characteristic is on
the average, lethal.

> Then order ACQ.  :)  This is the anal-retentive GM's dream combat system
> for Traveller.  Based on real world combat, most characters who get into
> firefights will die.

I'll just stick to Traveller, thanks. It's lethal enough.

Andy

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 12:01:28 2001
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Subject: Re: [TML] Way OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot
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Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes:

> > I need a definite headcount of the folks who planto hang out with
> > me (or stay at my house, or both) for the ARPC Spring Full-Auto
> > Shoot.  The 2 definites that I have are Jesse DeGraff and Tod Glenn.
>
>When *is* the shoot again?

May 19th & 20th.  Gates open at 7 AM, firing line goes hot from 9 AM
to 4 PM.

         - Mark C.

  mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
  7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
  Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 12:09:54 2001
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From: "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] RE:  (OT) Icosahedriphobia
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:08:45 +0100
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Hi

> So should I infer that you object to the use of the "d20 system"
> as outlined at  <www.opengamingfoundation.org>, but not to
> the use of a 20-sided die in Traveller?

The light dawns ... have you not read the rest of this thread ?

My gripe is that I don't want to see WotC or their cronies doing a d20
system Traveller, just as I didn't want to see Chaosium do a d20 Elric! or
Pagan Publishing do a d20 Call Of Cthulhu. I don't know if anyone is going
to do a d20 Traveller to be honest, but there are disturbing tremors in the
force ...

Tho' I must admit that I see no reason to change the existing d6 mechanics,
either.

Andy

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 12:15:59 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:15:12 -0400
From: "Eric A. Rhude" <ateno@panix.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Converting Striker to Traveller, Nicely
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Yeah, Yeah, I see how this group works....

Ok you will get both... 8)

Eric

AuricTech Shipyards wrote:
> 
> 
> --- Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >>From: "Eric A. Rhude" <ateno@panix.com>
> >
> >>I am just brand new to this group ( a whole day now), and 
> >>have played Classic traveller since about 1981-1982.
> >
> >Should his newbie essay be (1) set forth in detail how someone in the
> >United States could play Traveller for 20 years and not become involved in
> >the TML or (2) provide "a full explanation" of the Striker-Traveller
> >conversion that his group has used?
> 
> Yes.  It should. ;-)
> 
> 
> ==
> AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
> "Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
> TML Great Middle-Aged One
> Once and Future Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html
> 
> _____________________________________________________________
> Free eSweeet Mail - http://www.esweeet.com
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 12:41:11 2001
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X-Original-Article-From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: [TML] RE: (OT) Icosahedriphobia (longish)
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Message-ID: <10411.102326.5g8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:23:26 PST
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In mail you write:

>         I'm not sure where to start.  You are discussing "d20" as if it is a
>         particular game system of rules, rather than a die which may be
>         used in any number of different game systems.

D20 is the *official name* of the system of rules introduced for AD&D
3rd edition.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 12:47:12 2001
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Subject: Re: [TML] RE: (OT) Icosahedriphobia (longish)
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Message-ID: <10411.102326.5g8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
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In mail you write:

>         I'm not sure where to start.  You are discussing "d20" as if it is a
>         particular game system of rules, rather than a die which may be
>         used in any number of different game systems.

D20 is the *official name* of the system of rules introduced for AD&D
3rd edition.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 12:52:41 2001
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From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: [TML] RE: Confused about CT Law Levels
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Clark writes:
>Howdy all, semi-newbie here, so please be gentle :)

        Now, where did I put those kid gloves?  :)

>I'm thinking of setting a campaign in the New Islands sub-sector, and while 
>researching the UPP's, I came across Law Levels of A and above.  Scratching 
>my head, I went to Book 6 (nothing was mentioned in #3), and found out that 
>Law Level A+ means no weapons permitted at all.  This I get, yet I was 
>wondering what the differance would be between, say Law Level A and Level C?  
>Can anyone give me any clues?  Thanks in advance!

        I have always interpreted Law Levels (LL) above A as indicating
increasingly
        restrictive and well-enforced regulations.  Someone mentioned the 2D
roll
        vs LL to avoid harrassment, and this may be generally interpretted as an
        increased police presence and a lot of restrictive laws.  Any LL above C
        should probably include some rules that we would find stupid, like being
        fined for walking the wrong way on a one-way sidewalk, or failure to
smile
        at a police officer, or wearing shoes that have not been approved by the
        Health Office.  Do you have a permit for that moustache?  For what it's
        worth, here is my table for high LL and weapons:

        9   possession of any weapon outside of the home is prohibited
        10 weapons are prohibited anywhere
        11 plans for weapons are prohibited
             items such as baseball bats (weapons by another name) are
prohibited
             (special cutting tools are available which are difficult to use
as weapons)
        12 pictures of weapons are prohibited
             just about anything that may be used as a weapon is strictly
controlled
        13 talking about weapons is prohibited
             merely mentioning the word "gun" could land you in jail
        14 hearing about weapons is prohibited
             you may be arrested if your buddy uses the "G" word
        15 thinking about weapons is prohibited

        ;)

Peez

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 13:02:41 2001
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Subject: RE: [TML] Converting Striker to Traveller, Nicely
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:01:34 +0100
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Hi,

Just a quick note - as mentioned in another thread, I used to use a mix of
Snapshot, Striker and Bk1/Bk4 for personal combat. If I remember correctly,
(this was pre MegaTraveller, and to be honest, we adopted that system in
favour of this one in 1988 or so ...) it went like this -

The basic roll to hit was 7+ , modified by skill as a positive DM, and range
as a negative DM [Effective was +0, Long was -1, Extreme was -2]. Aimed
shots and so on were accounted for in the to hit roll.

If you hit the target, then compare the weapon penetration at this range to
armour as per Striker.

If penetration > armour, then treat Bk1/Bk4 damage as normal.
If penetration = armour, then apply half Bk1/Bk4 damage.
If penetration < armour, then apply quarter Bk1/Bk4 damage.
If penetration < armour/2, then no damage.

We further complicated things by allowing armour per hit location using the
White Dwarf #28 "On Target" rules to resolve the actual body part hit, and
allowing aimed shots for parts of the body.

We used Snapshot for action resolution and sequence of actions in a round,
movement allowance and so on.

I may be wrong about all this - it was 15+ years ago !!

Andy

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 13:25:24 2001
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Subject: RE: [TML] Confused about Law Levels...(CT)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:23:00 -0400
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>From: "Eric A. Rhude" <ateno@panix.com>
>
>>Or even ownership of knives at home only could be illegal, or clubs and
>>baseball bats.
>>
>>Yes it can get silly from where we are looking at from.
>
>How about: at very high law levels, study of any martial arts (except by
>law enforcement and military personnel) becomes illegal.  At even higher
>levels, martial arts and weapons texts are also illegal.
>
>--Glenn
>
Funny thing is that in the real world the development of the traditional
eastern martial arts was as response to the high law level prohibiting
individuals from owning swords and other types of weapons. Most martial arts
weapons, like the sai and tonfa, were farm implements that were adapted to
become weapons for those who were not allowed weapons.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 13:36:46 2001
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To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEECOCOAA.carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Confused about Law Levels...(CT)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:36:07 -0700
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> Funny thing is that in the real world the development of the traditional
> eastern martial arts was as response to the high law level prohibiting
> individuals from owning swords and other types of weapons. Most martial
arts
> weapons, like the sai and tonfa, were farm implements that were adapted to
> become weapons for those who were not allowed weapons.
>
> Terry C

IIRC, the higher the law level, the more likely there is corruption (or some
such).
Certainly, oppressive regime will have way to make thing go smoothly, or
obtain unobtainables. After all, high law levels are rarely respected by
those in power.  Rank has it's priviledges, and besides, anything people are
willing to pay for will be obtainable for the right price.  One can buy
drugs in the US, guns in Japan and England etc., if one has enough
negotiables.

As someone mentioned here previously "Do you know my friend Strephon?
Here's 10,000 pictures of him".

Tod

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 13:51:37 2001
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From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:51:15 -0400
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: Law Levels
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Someone in a previous digest asked:
I was 
>wondering what the differance would be between, say Law Level A and Level
C?  
>Can anyone give me any clues?  Thanks in advance!

Inexplicably, no one has yet mentioned the table in the MegaTraveller Ref Manual defining law levels all the way up to K or L or some other ridiculously high value.  Is this table considered off-limits because of the 'CT' in the original subject-line or has everyone just forgotten about it?

Trent
Icosahedriphobe extraordinaire

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 14:00:32 2001
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From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: [TML] RE: (OT): Icosahedriphobia (long)
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Andy writes:
<snipped>
>>In CT, armor detracted from the to-hit roll.  Which is exactly what you
>>are complaining about here.  The separation of penetration and
>>damage didn't come until MegaTraveller.
>Actually, I believe it was first voiced in Striker, which is where
>MegaTraveller drew a lot of stuff from.
>Also, I should point out that most referees I knew at the time where using
>Snapshot and Striker for personal combat anyway - Snapshot gave you action
>points, Striker gave you penetration, Book 1/Book 4 gave you damage.
>>Also, very few people were ever killed outright in CT from gunshots.  A CT
>>Rifle did 3d6.  Average damage 10.5.  Joe Average (UPP 777777) Needs to
>>take 21 hits before he is dead.  Odds are he is unconscious, but CT had no
>>rules for bleeding to death.  In fact, Joe wakes up after ten minutes.
>>(Book 1, p. 34)
>Well, almost right ... but no cigar.

        I would grant the man a cigar, if he wants one.

>First of all, the weapon of choice in my Classic Traveller days was a 4D
>HEAP Snub Pistol because of the interchangable rounds and low recoil, plus
>the average Dex requirement. 4D has an average of 14 points.

        Whatever your weapon of choice was, the fact remains that according
        to LBB1 (the only personal combat rules for Traveller at one time) and
        Book 4: Mercenary, armour does not influence in any way the amount
        of damage inflicted by a hit.  Also, according to those same rules,
        a single shot from a 7.62 mm rifle has no chance whatsoever of killing
        'Joe Average' outright, and the most probable result is that 'Joe'
will be
        up and around in 10 minutes with very little problem.  In fact, there is
        a 9% chance that 'Joe' will not even be knocked down, and an 83%
        chance that he will not require medical treatment.

>Secondly, first blood is applied solely to one characteristic (Bk 1,
>Characters and Combat, Page 30, under Combat resolution) and may
>incapacitate or even kill as a result. Even 3D to one characteristic is on
>the average, lethal.
<snipped>

        Not according to books 1 and 4.  When one characteristic is reduced
        to 0, the character is unconscious but will wake up after 10 minutes
        with characteristics half way between normal and wounded level.  In
        practice, the 'first blood' rule increases the chances of knocking
        someone down or sending them to the hospital, but not of killing them.
        We were using the 'first blood' rule above (I actually use it for
all hits).
        If we didn't, then the rifle hit mentioned would have no chance at all
        of even knocking 'Joe' down, or wounding him enough to require
        medical attention.  Even with the 'first blood' rule, potentially deadly
        weapons like daggers and blades have no chance of sending 'Joe'
        to the hospital with a hit.

Peez

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 14:05:34 2001
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Subject: [TML] RE: (OT) Icosahedriphobia
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Andy writes:
>>So should I infer that you object to the use of the "d20 system"
>>as outlined at  <www.opengamingfoundation.org>, but not to
>>the use of a 20-sided die in Traveller?
>The light dawns ... have you not read the rest of this thread ?
<snipped>

        No need to be rude.  Yes, I have been reading this thread,
        though I cannot guarentee that I have not missed some
        posts.  I am not the only one to missinterpret the meaning
        of "d20", suggesting that it is not merely some brain
        spasm on my part which was responsible.  If I have
        bothered you because of my mistake, then I appologise.

Peez

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 14:18:50 2001
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"Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Don't forget "ring" (although you might prefer to use "asteroid" to
> > double for this).
..
> Ohhhh, sugar!!! I'd forgotten about really big artificial objects like
> rings and Culture-type orbitals.

Actually, I meant "ring" as in the rings of Saturn (and other gas giants).
But, yes - you might *also* want to allow for Ringworlds, Dyson spheres, etc.

John
http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/



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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 14:31:29 2001
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From: WLane@syncata.com
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Subject: [TML] Tech levels
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:29:59 -0700
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Can someone give me the correct transposition of tech levels between CT and
Gurps Traveller. reason i ask is i want to give the players more items they
can buy than what is supplied in the CT books. i would like to use some of
the gear in the ultra tech books but the tech levels are way skewed. 8P

thanks

Bill

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<HTML>
<HEAD>
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<TITLE>Tech levels</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Can someone give me the correct transposition of tech =
levels between CT and Gurps Traveller. reason i ask is i want to give =
the players more items they can buy than what is supplied in the CT =
books. i would like to use some of the gear in the ultra tech books but =
the tech levels are way skewed. 8P</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>thanks</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Bill</FONT>
</P>

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 15:24:00 2001
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From: "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] RE: (OT) Icosahedriphobia
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:21:59 +0100
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Hi

> No need to be rude.

My apologies, in hindsight I guess it was a little rude ... it's just that
it's very frustrating to read a mail as part of a thread where the author
*seems* to have not read the entire thread before posting. The implication
behind your mails was that you had not done so ... my bad.

> I am not the only one to missinterpret the meaning of "d20", suggesting
that it is not merely some
> brain spasm on my part which was responsible.  If I have bothered you
because of my mistake, then I
> appologise.

No need to apologise, d20 does have an older and more well-known meaning,
and I guess WotC's marketing team haven't brainwashed everyone on the planet
... yet.

Andy






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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 15:24:01 2001
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Subject: [TML] First Blood in Classic Traveller
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:21:58 +0100
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Hi,

>        I would grant the man a cigar, if he wants one.

Hold that order !!

The "First Blood" rule is unclear to me, in retrospect. Since
characteristics cannot be negative, the 7 points over must surely be applied
to another characteristic, right ? If so, then he's down and out for the
count on an average roll.

Remember the average of 4D damage for a Snub Pistol loaded with HEAP is 14.
Joe Average, UPP 777777 would therefore be at zero in two characteristics
from a normal hit.

LBB1 - Page 31, : "Unconcious characters (with two characteristics reduced
to zero) are considered severely wounded, and recover consciousness after
three hours. Their characteristics remain at the wounded level (or  one,
whichever is higher). Recovery is dependent on medical attention
(recuperation without medical attention is not possible."

The chance of rolling 14+ on 4D is 55.6% according to the table at the back
of LBB0 (An Introduction To Traveller). You therefore have a 1 in 2 chance
of wounding someone so badly that (a) they won't get up and (b) without
medical attention, they're dead.

Of course, you might be lucky without First Blood - each of the 4D is
treated as an individual cluster of hits, so you might be able to stay at 1+
in each of Str, Dex and End.

> In practice, the 'first blood' rule increases the chances of knocking
> someone down or sending them to the hospital, but not of killing them.
> We were using the 'first blood' rule above (I actually use it for all
hits).

Well, yes and no, depends if points carry over I guess.

Andy

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 15:53:03 2001
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From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Tech levels
To: tml@travellercentral.com
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WLane@syncata.com writes:
> Can someone give me the correct transposition of tech levels between CT and
> Gurps Traveller. reason i ask is i want to give the players more items they
> can buy than what is supplied in the CT books. i would like to use some of
> the gear in the ultra tech books but the tech levels are way skewed. 8P

That's easy.  GURPS TL 8-15 equipment maps in a largely random way to 
traveller TL 8-25;).  An accurate mapping isn't really possible, gurps 
changes the order in which technologies appear, includes tech which is not
available in in traveller, and is missing tech that is available in traveller.
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 16:01:01 2001
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Subject: [TML] > Subject: RE: Confused about CT Law Levels
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:56:03 -0400
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One of the sector-viewing utilities has explanations for the law levels
above A.  I can't recall which one directly, nor do I speculate on if they
are canon . . .


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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 17:39:24 2001
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Subject: [TML] RE: Instrumentation
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From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
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Dear Folks -

Further to William Lane's query from a week or two ago (old TML!!):
>>the only difference between the holographic system and the manual system
>>is that it will allow the user faster reaction times.

I replied:
>Actually, this is part of later MT info (a rule change, not errata! ;-).
>Holo-dynamic controls give a bonus to initiative, I believe (I'll have
>to look this up!).

Well, I finally looked this up. It's in the Q&A from Travellers' Digest 19
(BTW, I wonder if the questioner "B.B." is Bryan Borich??):

[Question:]
"Do high-tech control systems confer any benefits in starship combat?
Shouldn't holodynamic controls be more responsive than, say, computer
linked systems? - B. B."

[Answer:]
"You have a good point."

[much discussion snipped; maybe I'll add it to the Q&A's in my Repair Bays
sometime.]

"... High-tech controls are more responsive, and they should confer an
advantage in starship combat. Originally, we didn't provide for any
difference in the MegaTraveller rules. Enough people have asked us this
question that we feel it is time to do somathing about it. How, then, can
we implement this difference in the rules?

The easiest way is to modify Step 2 of the starship combat procedure (see
_MegaTraveller Referee's Manual_, page 91). The basic rules state: "At the
beginning of each combat round, the side with the largest tactical point
pool gets to select which side goes first". Reasonably, ships with advanced
controls will respond faster than ships with more primitive systems, all
other factors being equal.

Thus, modify the tactical points pool of each side according to the
following table, once for each unit:

     TL  Control Type        DM
      8  electronic linked   -2
      9  computer linked     -1
     10  dynamic linked       0
     13  holodynamic linked  +1

- James Holden"

(all from _The Travellers' Digest 19_, DGP, Boise Idaho, USA, 1990, pp
36-37)

The Q&A then gave an example: two TL 15 fighters, with each pilot having
Ship Tactics-1, versus a TL 9 cruiser and a captain with Ship Tactics-3.
The fighters have a tactics point pool of 4; one point for _each_ pilot's
skill plus one point for _each_ fighter's controls. The cruiser has a
tactics point pool of 2; 3 points from the captain's skill, minus 1 for the
cruiser's controls.

That is, the player running the fighters can choose who goes first!

Oh, and in case you're wondering, DGP stated that all the Q&A's were vetted
by Marc, prior to publication (although this particular issue didn't
include this standard disclaimer).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 18:11:33 2001
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From: LB2NOLA@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:10:48 EDT
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Law Levels
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Thanks for all the great info to chomp on :)  

Clark
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 18:30:09 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:29:36 EDT
Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Confused about CT Law Levels
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Great list!  Could have some fun with that one <eg>

Clark
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 19:15:17 2001
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Subject: RE: [TML] OT : Icosahedriphobia [LONG]
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 11:36:11 +1000
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Dear Folks -

Andy Brick gave us a detailed analysis of the d20 system, specifically in
relation to D&D. I agree with the majority of his analysis; it was
reasonably scholarly and in-depth.

As an avid player of both AD&D and Traveller, I thought I'd throw in my 2
cp here...

>Alignments - too black and white... the _PLAYER_ [should]
>decide how to interpret these and do the rest.

Correct, and that's how I've generally used them - they are something that
helps the player decide how their PC should react in certain situations.
It's still up to the player, however.

>Classes - these *really* irk me... A character should be the
>sum of his or her experiences, not a checklist for an artificial
stereotype.
>You should strive to build an individual, not clone a template.

(Presumably you don't like the GURPS templates, either?) I'd call the
classes an example of _archetypes_, rather than stereotypes. I mean, I've
know quite a few (twisty little?) 10th level fighters, all different. ;-)

>Hit Points - These should not be related to experience.

But this method works well in a "heroic" game.

>Wounds... it's hard to work out how badly injured a character is if
>hit points represent experience too...

True. This has always been a feature of D&D, that there are no fatigue
points (for instance) or minuses to task rolls based on wound level. Again,
it's a heroic game.

>Armour - Instead of blocking damage, this makes it harder to deliver a
blow.
>I don't agree with this either; I much prefer systems based on absorbing
>damage as this makes more sense. No one, no matter how skilled, is going
to
>find a weakpoint that bypasses all-encompassing armour like say basic
combat
>armour... I prefer [the Penetration and Attenuation] mechanism as it is
>more realistic.

Here you have hit the nail on the head. It's NOT realistic. Combat in D&D
is not meant to be realistic - it's not a simulation (think: Harpoon), it's
a GAME (think: Die Hard). When characters in movies do fool things like
swinging from 20' tall chandeliers to drop on their enemies heads, or
perform train-to-plane transfers by rope ladder, you can be sure that the
set has been built so that actor/stuntman is going to be reasonably safe
even if the stunt fails. If you did that sort of thing off-the-cuff in real
life, you'd probably either kill yourself or break every bone in your body
if you fell. How about thinking of the all the "unrealistic" combat rules
(hit points, armour, weapons, etc etc) as the replacement "padding" for
characters who don't have stone-painted cardboard boxes or huge air-bags to
fall upon.

If you want realism in combat, don't play D&D. If you want to play Die
Hard, play D&D; if you want to play Die Quickly, play Cthulu; if you want
to play Just Die Already (over and over), play Paranoia. ;-).

>Magick - Don't go there. Traveller's Psionics and Pendragon's rather heavy
>ritualistic magic remain the best treatments of this in a roleplaying game
>after Mage...

Again, this is a matter of taste. What's the difference between a fireball
and an FGMP-15? (None: the targets are all just spear-carriers, anyway).

>Saving Throws - These were, and may well be, still very arbitrary. I'd
>prefer saving throws based more on characteristics and/or skills, where a
>character's abilities count. It's what makes characters more individual.

Agreed, they are arbitrary (there's that "padding" again). Minor quibble:
some D&D saving throws ARE modified by stats.

>Weapons - AD&D used to be that a character was near enough equally
>proficient in all weapons depending on their level of experience. I don't
>know about d20, but if to hit numbers are more dependent on class and
level
>than skill and specialisation then I would believe that this is not
terribly
>realistic either.

Actually, the weapon spread in AD&D is quite clever. Primarily hand-to-hand
based (the bows are an obvious add-on to the system), the weapons each have
advantages and disadvantages. These are cleverly weighted, so that the
range of effect is not _that_ far apart. Even when using a d4 dagger rather
than a d12 2H sword, the damage ranges are very close. In Trav, by
contrast, if you obtain a TL 12 gauss rifle, why use any other slug
thrower? An the 15D damage of an FGMP-15 is hugely different than the 2D
damage of a handgun. This means that in D&D it is much easier to create a
balanced opposing force against the PCs than in, say, Trav. Tanks vs
infantry is a walkover; a couple of high-level mages against a high level
PC party, isn't.

>I could go on, I won't. I personally don't like d20 for the reasons above.
>If you do, fair enough.

As you have said, it's just a matter of taste. I have a Trav group that are
avid AD&Ders, and we created a d20 version of traveller for them. I have
another group of Trav players who use more standard Trav rules (although
we'll probably move to the KB3 Task System).

>What would be a terrible shame though is that if
>effort goes into producing products and supplements for d20, that's effort
>taken away from developing for the original games system, and that I feel
is
>a considerable loss. I feel the same about GURPS Traveller, and I felt the
>same about TNE - I believe that the best way forward is for a game system
to
>be supported and developed, not replaced entirely.

While this is a reasonable concern, I don't think it is a problem in
practice. "As D&D goes, so goes the industry", is a mantra that I have come
to believe. Like it or not, D&D is the flagship of the gaming industry.
When TSR fell, and other things such as CCG's and computer gaming began
grabbing the same disposable income from the sources that once supported
tabletop gaming, the whole roleplaying industry fell on hard times (or
should that be "Hard Times"? ;-) Hopefully, the takeover and revival of D&D
will also create a revival in the entire face-to-face roleplaying industry
(otherwise known as the "New Era"? ;-) ;-).

>Traveller (be it Classic, Mega or T4) is a well rounded, well balanced,
>consistent system, with thousands of man hours of play testing. Traveller
>and other second generation roleplaying games produced around '77-'79,
like
>RuneQuest and later Call Of Cthulhu, are games which allow a great deal of
>flexibility whilst providing a "realistic", consistent framework to play
in.
>They encourage individuals and better roleplaying as a result.

Quibble #1: I'd define Classic Trav as first generation. Remember that -
like AD&D - your armour vs the weapon is used to determine whether you were
hit or not, and if you were hit you take full damage from the weapon. I'd
concede that MT and TNE are second-generation. GURPS? Maybe it's an
ahead-of-its-time 3rd generation. (What do/should the later generations
represent, anyway? Different, more "realistic" combat rules? Styles of play
that encourage more role-playing and less roll-playing?? Anyone have a few
definitions???)

Quibble #2: D&D has also had "thousands of hours of playtesting". It had
that even before 2nd Edition came out, and it has had even more prior to
the new D&D system being built.

Quibble #3: In what way is the D&D system "inconsistent"? Within it's own
realm, it's quite consistent. Not realistic, I grant you, but at least it's
not realistic across the board (apart from those interminable late 80's
debates on how best to portray "falling damage" - anyone remember them?? %
^)

>d20 is not flexible, and enforces stereotypical characters and arbitrary
>rules systems.

And these are often the very characteristics that make it such great fun to
play!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 19:41:20 2001
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Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote
 
> >From: "Eric A. Rhude" <ateno@panix.com>
> >Or even ownership of knives at home only could be illegal, or clubs and
> >baseball bats.
> >Yes it can get silly from where we are looking at from.

> How about: at very high law levels, study of any martial arts (except by
> law enforcement and military personnel) becomes illegal.  At even higher
> levels, martial arts and weapons texts are also illegal.

Almost anything _can_ be a weapon. At extreme law levels private
kitchens might be illegal because they often contain knives, 
forks, ovens, and other implements of death. It just depends on 
how far you want to go.

I had a LL F Traveller world once where wearing long hair was 
illegal, on the theory that you could braid it, cut it off and 
strangle someone with the rope like braid. Chairs were also
illegal on this planet because you might club someone over the
head with them.
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 20:35:35 2001
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From: Pat Berry <pberry@nc.rr.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: OT : Icosahedriphobia
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEHACDAA.andy@exeus.com>
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At 09:38 AM 4/11/01 +0100, Andy Brick wrote:

> >> You see, icosahedriphobia is the irrational fear of things with twenty
> >> sides.
> >> ObTrav : Please, no Traveller : d20 !! Never !!
>
> > Why not?
>
>Because it dilutes effort. If people are writing stuff for d20, they aren't
>writing stuff for T5 or that's backwardly compatible with anything else.

Now this argument I can agree with.  I think having more than one in-print, 
publisher-supported rules system for Traveller at the same time is probably 
a bad idea.  Which is why I also am not particularly interested in seeing 
T5 become a reality.  GURPS Traveller is doing just fine, and I don't see 
anything to be gained by creating another, incompatible Traveller system to 
compete with it.  I'd be happier if Marc Miller would drop the idea and 
join the GT team instead.

>[Having said all that, if d20 sells well and will fund the development of
>T5, then green for go and let's ship it now ... even then, I wouldn't buy it
>though, just like I haven't bought GURPS Traveller either.]

I can understand your reasons, but I don't agree with them.  I see GT as 
the best hope for keeping Traveller alive, and support it for that 
reason.  If, in the future, either T5 or D20 Traveller appears to be a 
better bet, I will support that instead.

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 21:47:38 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:47:11 -0500
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On 04/11/01 at 03:43 PM,  "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> said:

>Just my 0.02Cr's-worth.

>I believe someone else has mentioned T:TNE already, and I seem to
>recall  that the last MT "supplement" (darnit, I cannot remember
>what it was called! 

_Survival Margin_

>  Arrggghh!) 

I know the feeling. <g>

>...had a conversion 'ruleset' for transferring MT
>characters to  TNE.  And I believe there are several
>T:TNE had the great (IMNSHO) advantage that it was built on the
>same 'GDW  House' system as Twilight 2000 2nd.ed and Dark
>Conspiracy - which started  off as D10 but then 'mutated' into a
>D20 system...

Yep, and a pretty good system it is, too. 


Eris
-- 
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eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 22:04:45 2001
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Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:06:51 +0300
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Ian Ferguson wrote:

>         I'm not sure where to start.  You are discussing "d20" as if it is a
>         particular game system of rules, rather than a die which may be
>         used in any number of different game systems.  If that was the
>
> Peez

The discussion is centered around d20, not D20... :)

d20 is the name for WoTC's "Open Gaming License", which is useable by
anyone. read more at

http://www.opengamingfoundation.org  and
http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/d20.html

GNiko

-- 
Would that reason were as contagious as emotion.
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Wed Apr 11 23:05:38 2001
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Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 01:36:42 -0400
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From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: [TML] Smart Fabrics
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Something I wrote up recently for my campaign...
-- Some of this information is based on Greg Porter's _Central Supply 
Catalogue_.
-- This uses Trav Tech Levels, not GURPS.

Your comments are welcomed.

Enjoy,

  +GMG+
--------------------

Smart Fabrics
-------------

Consumers in high-tech societies may select from a bewildering 
variety of options when shopping for clothing or other items made 
from fabric, such as tents and bags.  A scanner booth generates a 3D 
model of the shopper, which can be saved to a smart card or personal 
organizer.  Provided with this model, automated manufacturing 
equipment (often located in the store) can produce any requested 
garment within a few hours--sometimes minutes--custom-fitted to the 
shopper's measurements, and integrating the selected features.

A single Smart Fabric can have a maximum number of optional 
capabilities equal to its TL minus 8.  Thus, TL9 Smart Fabric can 
have only 1 capability, TL15 up to 7 capabilities.

All costs, masses and stored volumes listed below are for a full suit 
(for a typical human), or per 1m2 of Smart Fabric, and are *in 
addition* to the cost, mass and volume of the Basic Fabric itself.. 
For a jacket alone, halve the mass, volume and cost.  Divide or 
multiply cost as appropriate for gloves, footwear, headgear, 
backpacks, tents, etc.

Except as noted, most options require tiny rechargeable batteries, 
which are included in the price. Most clothing designs include 
discrete pockets for batteries and various personal electronic items 
such as Comms.

All Smart Fabric features break down over time from wear and tear, 
especially from cleaning. They eventually become inoperable, some 
faster than others.  Video Fabric-12 will become blurry and illegible 
after perhaps only 30 days' use and cleaning, while Variable 
Colour-12 will last much longer.  Higher TL materials are longer 
lasting.

Smart Fabrics should be washed only by cleaning technologies of equal 
or higher Tech Level; lower-tech methods will damage or destroy them.

These materials cannot be properly tailored at home by the consumer 
without a special skill and expensive computer-driven equipment.

Some options cannot be combined in the same fabric, such as 
Electro-Adhesive and Touch-Sensitive (because the adhesive area 
cannot also be touch-sensitive).

Some combinations of options are redundant, e.g. Video Display 
includes Electroluminescent, while Optical Chameleon includes both 
Variable Color and Variable Shade.

			Mass	Cost	Stored Vol.
Basic Fabric-9		1kg	10Cr	1 liter
	Full suit or 1m2 of fabric.  Optional capabilities are 
detailed below. Computer circuitry is integrated into the weave of 
all Smart Fabrics, giving them a specialized computational Rating of 
1; i.e., Video Display fabric is R1 for video display tasks, R0 for 
all others.  (For higher ratings, see "Computational Array-13-15", 
below.)

Smart Fabric Options, by Tech Level:

Motion Capture-9		--	100Cr	--
	Captures body-motion data to any computer, for VR and 
tele-operation applications. Does not provide tactile or force 
feedback.

Phosphorescent-9		--	50Cr	--
	Absorbs sunlight and glows for several hours.  Once charged, 
the fabric's phosphors cannot be "turned off", and will continue to 
glow until their energy is dissipated.

Thermo-Electric-9		0.25kg	300Cr	0.25 liter
	Self-heating and -cooling.  Uses between 100 and 1000w, 
depending on conditions, and requires a power source. 
('Photoelectric' option is usually sufficient to power only the 
lowest settings.)

Electro-Adhesive-10	0.3kg	1000Cr	0.3 liter
	Becomes extremely sticky under a small current; otherwise 
non-sticky. Usually applied only to the soles of footwear for use in 
microgravity (see 'Stickyfeet', CSC pg 15), or to the palms and 
fingers of gloves, providing added traction in climbing, for example. 
A bolt of Electro-Adhesive material, fixed to the ground and fitted 
with a motion-detector, could be used as a humane trap for small 
animals. Designed into carpet, it will seriously hinder intruders, 
but not authorized personnel.  Mass and price shown are for a full 
suit, or 1m2; use 5-10% for Sticky-feet/gloves. Sticky-patches must 
be replaced regularly at 500Cr per suit (or per m2).

Variable Color-10,12	--	25Cr	--
	Varies within a spectrum between any two primary colors, at a 
set tonal value (i.e. light, medium, or dark), unless combined with 
Variable Shade option. At TL12, varies across nearly the full colour 
spectrum, at a set tonal value.  Able to display various patterns 
(pinstripes, checkers, dots) and large-size text, but refreshes 
slowly (about once per second).  Not a useful video or computer 
display.

Variable Shade-10		--	25Cr	--
	Varies within a spectrum of tonal values from dark to light, 
within a single color (unless combined with Variable Color option). 
See previous.

Water Shedding-10		--	50Cr	--
	Breaths easily, but waterproof under most wet-weather 
conditions.  Actively channels water from the interior to the 
exterior surface.  Water-shedding fabric is not waterproof when fully 
immersed, but will dry itself rapidly even after being soaked through.

Biomonitors-11		0.3kg	400Cr	0.3 litres
	Captures the wearer's body temperature, blood pressure, pulse 
rate, and respiration rate.

Electroluminescent-11	--	70Cr	--
	Produces light in a fixed color of variable intensity. 
Variable colors at TL12+.  At maximum intensity, illuminates up to 
10m radius for about 1 hour on a small battery.  Will glow at lower 
intensity for several days, or can be connected to a continuous power 
source.  Can flash to attract attention, and display various patterns 
or simple static messages in large text, but is not a useful video 
display.

Sound Emitting/Capturing-11	--	200Cr	--
	Can rigidify circular panels which vibrate to produce sound. 
Also receives sound through smaller panels that act as microphones. 
Quality of sound output and reception tends to vary with the size of 
panel, and how firmly anchored it is--i.e. a "Sound-Shirt" can 
reproduce human speech recognizably with some distortion, while a 
"Boom-Bedsheet" stapled to a wall will cleanly reproduce music with 
heavy bass and clean high frequencies.  Requires 5w to 200w power, 
depending on volume and size.

Variable Opacity-11	--	100Cr	--
	Varies from opaque to nearly-transparent.  Tends to be more 
popular with the fashion industry than with the general public.

Video Display-11		--	100Cr	--
	Low-resolution RGB fibre-optic weave. Requires video input 
from camera, Comm, or recording (not included). Otherwise same 
capabilities as Electroluminescent.

Force Feedback-12		0.5kg	1000Cr	0.5 liter
	Flexes to provide limited tactile/force feedback for 
tele-operation or VR.

Optical Chameleon-12	0.25kg	500Cr	0.25 liter
	Medium-resolution variable-color display material. 
Short-range moving images collected by sensors on one side of garment 
are displayed on the opposite side, to camoflage the wearer.  Confers 
+2 DM to surprise rolls when stationary, +1 when moving (+3,+2 in 
darkness), and DM-1 to spot with optical sensors.  Can also be used 
as medium-resolution Video Display.

Photoelectric-12		0.25kg	20Cr	0.25 liter
	Generates power when exposed to sunlight. Output varies with 
conditions, but assuming an Atmos 6 world, 1AU from a G0v sun: a full 
suit will generate about 100w (250w at TL14).  A 1m2 area entirely 
exposed to the same light will generate about 300w (650w at TL14). 
Even the slightest cloud cover drastically cuts the output. In 
vacuum, will generate at least three times as many watts.

Computational Array-13-15	1kg	700Cr	1 liter
	Provides a higher computation rating than Basic Fabric by 
increasing the density of circuitry and connecting regions of the 
fabric into an array.  Specialized Rating R2 at TL13, R3 at TL15.

Self-Repairing-12		--	300Cr	--
	Self-repairs minor splits, tears, abrasions, etc.

Touch Sensitive-12		--	100Cr	--
	Haptic transducers in the fabric partially extend the 
wearer's sense of touch to the exterior of their clothes.  Senses 
heat, cold, moisture, impacts, and texture, though much less acutely 
than human skin. Requires sensory jack implant (not included). Touch 
Fabric has the strange effect of making one's clothes feel as if they 
were literally part of one's body, thus providing a heightened 
awareness of one's surroundings. Applied to bulky armor, reduces DEX 
penalty by 1, with practice.  Extremely useful when applied to the 
exterior of vac suits or other bulky hazardous-environment gear.

Toxin Filtering-12		--	500Cr	--
	Filters a range of known toxins from atmosphere.  Commonly 
found in filter suits (CSC pg 12).

Variable Rigidity-12	1kg	1000Cr	1 liter
	Can instantly rigidify when impact sensors are triggered, 
conferring an armor rating of r1 versus subsequent impacts (DM of -1 
to DEX tasks when rigid).  Can save the wearer's life in a fall. 
TL14+ versions include proximity sensors that can predict some 
impending impacts before they occur (on a roll of TL or less on 3D).

Variable Shape-12		0.5kg	100Cr	0.5 liter
	Varies cut, fit, and style of garment within a limited range. 
With this feature, loose garments can become snug and skintight, 
hemlines can shorten or lengthen by a few centimeters, lapels can 
widen or disappear, etc.  But a dress cannot transmogrify into pants 
or a shirt.

Variable Reflectivity-13	--	300Cr	--
	Varies from matte to mirror-like. Mirror mode provides armor 
rating f1 against laser weapons, but is very easy to spot with 
optical sensing, even at night.  This feature is commonly used in 
environments with extreme temperature ranges.

Thermal Chameleon-13	0.25kg	500Cr	0.25 liter
	Similar to Optical Chameleon, but operates in the IR spectrum 
to break up the wearer's heat signature and imitate surrounding 
heat-imagery (-2 to spot with thermal sensors).

Self-Cleaning-15		--	1000Cr	--
	Actively breaks down and sheds virtually all foreign material 
trapped in or on the fabric, especially organic matter.  Though not 
completely impervious to grime, it can be worn continuously for up to 
five days without acquiring a noticeable odor.  However, under-layers 
of synthetics must be worn, because Self-Cleaning Fabric will likely 
identify hair as dead organic material, leaving the wearer's body 
virtually hairless!  It will also degrade organic cloth in close 
contact with it.


Typical Smart-Fabric Suits
--------------------------

Work/Leisure Outfit-11	1kg	110Cr	1 liter
	Variable color, variable shade, water shedding.  A dark, 
conservative suit at the office, transforms into colorful casual-wear 
for dinner, loose or skintight as desired.

Dance Club Gear-12	1.5kg	410Cr	2 liters
	Video display, sound, biomonitors , variable opacity.  Sound 
panels tie into the club's sound system, putting you literally inside 
the music.  Video display reacts to biomonitor data with flashes of 
color and light in sync with your body's rhythms.  Opaque or 
translucent, depending on your mood, inhibitions, and respect for 
local custom.

Immersive Media-Suit-12	1.5kg	1410Cr	1.5 liters
	Motion-capture, force feedback, sound, touch sensitive.  For 
VR or tele-operation use.  Touch Fabric provides the illusion that 
the suit isn't even there.

Covert Ops Bodysuit-13	1.5kg	1160Cr	1 liter
	Water shedding, opto/thermal chameleon, variable shape. Crawl 
through the swamp, avoid the sentry-bots, set the charges, and slip 
back to the black-tie reception without even stopping to change 
clothes.

Adventure Climber-14	2kg	2000Cr	3 liters
	Thermo-electric, water shedding, electroluminescent, 
self-repair, photoelectric (generates about 250w); sticky-shoes & 
-gloves.  The glow of your climbing suit will help the rescue teams 
find you when you get stuck half-way up the crater wall.

Exploration Suit-15	2.5kg	2860Cr	3 liters
	Thermo-electric, water shedding, biomonitors, self-repair, 
optical chameleon, variable rigidity, variable reflectivity.  What 
the obsessively well-outfitted Scout is wearing this season.


Typical Smart-Fabric Gear
--------------------------
Backpack-12		1kg	200Cr	2 liters, empty
	Water shedding, variable opacity, self-repairing. De-opaque 
your pack and find out at a glance where you stowed your 
socks--without having to unpack everything else.  Increases 
Encumbrance limit by 20%. Capacity: 30 litres, 80kg.

Utility Vest-14		3kg	1500Cr	3 liters, empty
	Water shedding, optical chameleon, photoelectric, 
self-repair, touch sensitive, variable rigidity, variable shape. 
Pocket capacity: 12 liters.

Ultra Tarpaulin-12	4kg	32KCr	4 liters
	5 x 10m; electroluminescent, variable opacity, optical 
chameleon, photoelectric (generates about 650w per m2 exposed to 
sunlight).  Perhaps the most expensive way to cover a campsite ever 
invented!
----
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